Faith & Finance: An Interview with Bill Evans (Part 2)
What follows is Part 2 of the Helwys Society Forum’s interview with Bill Evans. Readers may listen to the audio version here, or they may read the transcript below. (Part 1 was posted Monday and may be listened to or read.)
Taxes
Jackson Watts (“JW”): Just recently most Americans filed their income tax returns. Here we are on the date of this interview (April 24), and tax day has passed. Incidently, you help many people complete their tax returns each year, don’t you?
Bill Evans (“BE”): Yes I do.
JW: In your experience, what is the biggest misconception that people have relative to that process and taxes more generally?
BE: Well I think probably the largest concept is that they should avoid taxes if at all possible. And technically, I believe that is probably part of their responsibility. Good stewardship says obey the law, but the law does not require you to give more taxes than necessary. Use the benefits [exemptions] available. However, I think most people look at taxes as unnecessary in their lives. Now it’s necessary for the population as a whole, but not for their lives.
Forty-nine percent of American families do not pay income taxes. Now that may come as a surprise to you, but those are the facts that the Internal Revenue Service prints. Forty-nine percent do not pay anything. They pay taxes—all of us pay taxes because there are so many hidden ones laid on purchases. I’ve got three different kinds of taxes on my phone bill. And they don’t make me happy. For one thing, most taxing agencies do not spend tax receipts very well. There’s no fiscal accountability seemingly in this country, and there’s frustration with that by those who do pay taxes. So I think it’s just a misunderstanding of purpose and intent and extent.
JW: That almost raises another question that perhaps we can pursue on another occasion about when civil disobedience might be necessary in the arena of paying taxes (laughter). But of course under normal circumstances, you’re advocating that part of what “rendering unto Caesar that which is his” requires that we pay taxes, even if we disagree with the rate?
BE: Right. Well, I enjoy wonderful highways made possible by taxes. I enjoy the protection of an army by virtue of taxes. There’s a lot of reason for taxes. But how they are used and the extent of their use is left for debate.
JW: Let’s stick to that subject for just a moment. We’re coming off of an election year and during that time there was a great deal of discussion about possible changes to the tax code. This is nothing new. The idea sometimes enjoys bipartisan support. But given the economic situation in this country and globally, it does seem like there may be some significant changes coming out, given all the challenges being faced at home and abroad. As you see things, given our trajectory as a country and as a global economy, is there a particular trend or change most likely to affect the church in the near future, and especially individual Christians with their finances?
BE: Well, I think probably the charitable deduction is the number one issue that is at risk for Christians. However, unfortunately most Christians do not use the charitable deduction because Uncle Sam gives a married couple $11,900 of exemptions without any proof, and most people don’t give that much. So they don’t get to use the charitable deduction. I think therefore what we look at and see is that it’s going to be used against the higher-giving individuals—whether they’re in lower-income bracket or the upper one—but it will be justified because it is the upper-income bracket people who use it more frequently. So it’s that “tax the rich, and relieve the lower-income people.”
My biggest complaint with the tax system—as we have it right now as I fill out taxes—is that I fill out taxes for a number of people who do not pay any taxes, but get refunds because the tax system has a welfare portion in it. And it has confused everybody.
JW: Hold on a minute. Are you saying that those 49% of households who don’t pay any income taxes get refunds?
BE: Yes. “Refunds” they’re called, but they’re not refunds because they didn’t pay anything in.
JW: Wow. I think people who may be reading this on our website now are smashing their hand into the computer screen (laughter). I can see it now.
BE: Well I can, too. It’s very frustrating to me. I understand we need to be generous and gracious to the poor. I know that we need to help the poor. But I think one of the problems is using the tax code, the tax agency, to benefit them as a refund confuses the individual being helped and the whole mass of our people who are paying taxes.
JW: To clarify the point, when politicians have been recently addressing the revenue being “given away” through the tax code, do some of them have this in mind?
BE: Some of them do.
Churches & Pastors
JW: Hmm. Well it would be interesting to pursue that a little bit further, but let’s shift gears for a moment. Many who read this or listen to this will be pastors. So first off, as you think about your experiences pastoring and working with churches over the years, what are some of the most significant changes in the way that churches deal with finances, whether from the standpoints of treasurers’ procedure, etc.?
BE: Well, I’m struggling to get a handle on what you’re asking. But I think one thing is that churches have more information available to them today on things like structuring salary packages than they used to have. So a pastor may be paid x number of dollars and protect a number of them from tax, and possibly social security taxation. Preachers have a unique position in the tax code. We are, for social security tax purposes, always self-employed. But we also pay as an employee. We have the housing allowance provision which allows us to receive non-taxable income in providing housing for ourselves, but it is subject to social security taxes. So there is confusion there. And many of our church treasurers do not understand that even though there is information available to help them. And the Free Will Baptist Foundation offers advice and counseling to anyone who wants to seek personal information about that. I think other agencies in our denomination would also provide some, but I know the Foundation is equipped to do that, so is the Board of Retirement [“BOR”]. Both agencies encourage pastors to take advantage of all the tax shelters available.
JW: As we think about pastors listening to this or reading this, if you could give some advice to say older pastors about personal finance, or as it relates to their churches (say those 50 or 60 and older), what would you say to them?
BE: I want to say two things. One is I would encourage every one of them to look very carefully at future housing. One of the major challenges they’re going to face is housing. If they do not own their home, they’re going to have to live somewhere. And the second impacts this first one. It is, “When are you going to retire?” I do not want to discourage older pastors. But I do want for them to face the reality that they are not able to do all they used to do. And intelligence and experience don’t make up for everything. There comes a time when pastors will retire. If death doesn’t catch them in the pulpit, they’re going to retire. Therefore, they need to be prepared for that, and it’s much better emotionally for them and the church for them to recognize that and step aside before they are forced to do so. That’s not good for either the church or the pastor, and often it comes when it is too late for the church, because it’s hard for a church to say to a man, “It’s time for you to retire.” They shouldn’t have to.
But I know we as a denomination haven’t done a good job of preparing our men and providing for them. There have been some changes. It has improved. But it hasn’t improved for the vast majority. We do not have really that many churches that are full-time churches. When I say “full-time” I mean that a pastor can actually provide housing and hospitalization and everything else from that salary. Most of our guys are sacrificing to do pastoral work. Some are doing it bi-vocationally. And some are just suffering with low incomes.
JW: What about, let’s say younger pastors? I myself am 28 years old. There aren’t a lot of pastors in our movement that age, but there are some. But even those in their thirties or early forties. What kind of financial advice and admonitions would you give to them?
BE: I would want to say real quickly, “Learn early to live on less than you make.” I think Randy Alcorn says there is a three-step process in handling your budget: Give first (that’s the tithe, a minimum). Save second. Spend third. I read a book published by Moody in the 1960s, and he basically said the same. So I looked at it, and ignored it to my shame. And we must as young men spend less than we make. And we must spend a minimum early on, or we get used to a lot. So we need to save. We need to give. There is no excuse for not giving to the Lord. I believe a man who honors the Lord with his giving will be helped in the process. That doesn’t mean God is going to drop buckets of gold on you. It just means you may be healthier. You may have better opportunities, whatever. But I believe He helps. But you have to start early saving.
I think you need to start with the BOR and get some money going in there. I’m confident there are a few fellows out there who can invest the money better than the BOR can, but there are very few. For one reason, diversification is not something they look at and the BOR does. The board uses a church covenant to limit investments. We would never invest in anything whose primary product was alcohol, tobacco, gambling, pornography, Hollywood entertainment—those kinds of things. We eliminated that. Most young men don’t have enough money to do that too well. Then the other thing is, you don’t need to become an investment advisor. You don’t need to become proficient in investment. You need to become proficient in preaching and ministering to your people. It takes a lot of time and lot of research to do it well and most men don’t have it.
So I say let someone else do it for you. Get your budget under control. Remember, you can drive used cars cheaper than new cars. You can provide the insurance protection you need for life insurance with term policies at a very cheap rate as opposed to whole life. I know when you have a term policy and you get down the road, 30 or 40 years, it’s no good. It’s gone. But all you need is protection for a period of time, not forever. You can buy it much cheaper with term insurance and invest the difference so you will have permanent money.
JW: I think that’s a point we’ll have to take up further after this interview. We have a young man who sells insurance in our church, and we’ve had this conversation several times.
The essays that we publish on the Forum frequently explore Christian thought and practice from many ages ago, centuries ago. We believe there’s much we can learn from the tradition that we’re ignorant of many times. So part of what we’re trying to do is become conversant with the 2000-year tradition of the church. In your time thinking about these things, have you found anything from that tradition that helps us on that matter? Are there particular figures that we should be listening to in the 21st century? If so, who are they?
BE: Without fail, I would say that the early church fathers were vehement on tithing. I mean they were strong tithers and emphasized it. I think the ring from the ancients would be, “The Lord hasn’t changed his plan on supporting his work.” Today, there are a number of voices who are very good in addressing 20 and 21st century concepts. Probably one of the best I’ve ever read is Randy Alcorn. He has a number of books out. He is extensive. Ron Blue is another.
JW: I recently saw that Broadman & Holman has a book called Perspectives on Tithing. We actually had someone review that for the Forum. Though I didn’t read the book, there were four perspectives presented in that book. Who knew there were four different views on tithing? (laughter)
BE: (laughter) Well I think Dave Ramsey has some good things to say to us on finances. Larry Burkett and Crown Ministries as a publisher has some good things for Sunday School and Church programs. I think we need all the help we can get, and I think it needs to be carefully considered. Now I cannot sit here and tell you that I agree with any of these 100%. There are areas where I differ on some of their approaches. But what we’re talking about are minor, not major points. They all say we’re accountable to God for every penny we get. Debt is a killer. We need to manage debt carefully. Most of them are just deaf on debt with perhaps the exception of a house. I started out of college with nothing. Now fortunately I didn’t have any college debt, but I didn’t have anything. So I started from ground zero and began to work. I got a used car for a graduation present from college. And that was my vehicle—a 1955 Chevy, and I graduated in ’62. It was several years old, and it was my dad’s worn-out car. But he overhauled it and gave it to me. That’s a place to start—carefully handling automobiles. They can be a terrible expense for young men. And you have to be careful because you can get head over heels with a new car.
And then when you get your budget under control and you listen to some of these guys and you weigh and sift through using your sifter. Everybody has to make things personal. So you take your situation and their information, their advice, and counsel, and then design a program under the leadership of God to do what you need to do. And when you look down the road, everybody starts at the beginning. And nobody knows where the roads gonna lead, how many turns, how many disasters. But we start and end up with the same God.
JW: So we’re past the 50-year mark in the ministry of Bill and Brenda Evans, correct?
BE: That’s right.
JW: What’s the next few years look like as far as you’re concerned?
BE: Well, someone asked me what I’m doing. And I never know too far in advance. We’re traveling. We’re obviously writing articles and interviewing people. We’re filling pulpits at various places. I cannot see any time when I’m going to have to worry about what I’m going to be doing a few months from now. I’m doing volunteer tax work every spring with AARP. I’m doing private counseling with individuals and families on financial matters. I’m a substitute Sunday School teacher. But the fields are wide open. I believe in retirement, but I don’t believe in sitting down.
JW: We almost need to perhaps come up with a different term, don’t we?
BE: Yes we do.
JW: . . . one for when we retire, and then one for the other period of time.
BE: I think one fellow said, “unpaid work.”
JW: (laughter)
BE: But I contended at the BOR that retirement was to enable us to help people when they couldn’t afford to pay us. I believe the laborer is worthy of his hire. I believed all the way along. But if a man has his retirement provided, he doesn’t have to be paid; if an individual or a church can, they should. But there are many of our churches that cannot afford it. They need specialized help and those of us guys who are retired and have our income already secured, we can do that.
JW: Well I think that’s a good note to end on. Again, we’ve been so fortunate to have you here answering questions for us. I know many people will benefit from this. We’ll of course have you here for one other service tonight at Grace, and we’re looking forward to that for how the Lord will use you as we look back on this meeting even later perhaps. Hopefully this is a conversation we can revisit some time.
BE: I would look forward to that.
JW: Thanks so much.
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