Evil, Hope, and the End of the World: An Interview with Michael Zeigler
The Reverend Dr. Michael Zeigler is the pastor of Epiphany Lutheran Church in St. Louis and is an adjunct instructor of Systematic Theology at Concordia Seminary. Michael has become a good friend over the last few years. He is a great model of how one should wed sincere pastoral concern to significant theological reflection. He sat down with me recently to discuss the published form of his doctoral dissertation, Christian Hope Among Rivals.
An incomplete transcript of our interview with time-stamps can be found below, as well as a link to the full-length audio interview. I have provided this format to enable readers to follow the flow of thought in the interview, or fast-forward to specific parts of the interview.
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Jackson Watts (0.00-0.21): Michael, thanks for making time to visit with me today and discuss your book, which is entitled Christian Hope Among Rivals: How Life-Organizing Stories Anticipate the End of Evil (Pickwick, 2017). Thanks again and please begin by telling us a little bit about how you got interested in this topic. It’s fascinating.
Michael Zeigler (0.22-1:43)
Watts (1:44-2:18): So it sounds like we have the merging of two concerns. You have eschatology, which traditionally most associate with the end times, and the Second Coming, the rapture, heaven or hell. But then you also mention evil, which gets us thinking about another area within theology and philosophy, and that is theodicy, which is a way of accounting for the ways of God in the face of evil. In this book, you’re trying to bring those two concerns together, right?
Zeigler (2:19-3:06)
Watts (3:07-3:31): We should hasten to add that while, to some, this may sound like an overly academic set of concerns, you use an illustration early in the book that I think helps orient us to thinking about the concerns of people. You mention a guy named Sean in the chapter entitled “Zombie Jesus.” Why don’t you tell us what the anecdote is all about?
Zeigler (3:32-5:11)
Watts (5:12-5:25): And that seems to segue naturally into the subtitle and this key phrase you use: life-organizing stories. Give us a succinct definition of what that means and how it relates to this subject.
Zeigler (5:26-6:35)
Watts (6:36-7:16): So, in other words, we traditional Christians have espoused certain eschatological views about heaven and hell, and within that framework we say we have hope because we believe one day Christ will raise us, and we shall be with him. You’re saying in the book—and you say this several times—that you’re concerned that too many Christians assume that we’re the only game in town and that there aren’t other rival accounts or rival stories which also give people a sense of hope, even if we might believe that hope is inferior or just plain wrong.
Zeigler (7:17-8:37)
Watts (8:38-9:15): It’s interesting that you mention this being a pastoral project. You use a number of anecdotes in the book that I think are helpful, sizing up different situations which you’ve experienced in your pastoral work that help illuminate this subject. In that way, we could say that even though this is a theological project that is going on here, it is motivated by immensely pastoral and practical concerns. But would you also say that there is an apologetic concern motivating this project?
Zeigler (9:16-11:05)
Watts (11:06-11:47); At this point, I think one thing that a listener may wonder about is how you frame eschatology as “the resolution of conflict.” I think when most people think of eschatology, they think more in terms of specific events, the end times, apocalyptic imagery from Revelation, etc. It’s not that you don’t want to talk about all of that, but how do those types of concerns fit into the way you want to orient our thinking about eschatology?
Zeigler (11:48-13:28)
Watts (13:29-14:43): You give at least four alternatives, or rival life-organizing stories, and you associate them, as you said, with certain figures in history, Freud in the case you just mentioned. So let’s just play this out a little bit. We’re in worship on Sunday morning. And we’re here confessing that Jesus is Lord, we’re singing His praises, we’re listening to His Word, and our hope is organized around the person of Jesus Christ. You’re saying that across the street there is someone else sitting on their couch, enjoying food and watching a ball game. You’re saying that even though they don’t have the hope we have, they have something they are hoping in. And even if they have never read Freud or any of the other philosophers you mention in the book, they have been influenced by those stories as they have been articulated by such philosophers and have filtered down through culture. People in our communities are living out those stories. Is that kind of a way of putting this into a practical framework?
Zeigler (14:44-16:25)
Watts (16:26-16:56): Maybe that’s one of the areas where having a holistic or comprehensive understanding of biblical eschatology is compelling to such a person, to know that the hope that you and I speak of is not just this personal, existential thing, but that it is cosmic in scope. It transcends the individual while not losing the individual. That’s just kind of my gloss on it anyway.
Zeigler (16:57-18:11)
Watts (18:12-19:00): The one you just sketched out seems to me, trying to avoid caricature here, that you have your sort of the conventional educated secular elite, and the story you mentioned is the story they’ll be operating out of. But you’re a pastor here in St. Louis. I’m just kind of curious: as you look at the landscape of your community, and most of those folks wouldn’t consider themselves to be secular elites, is there a particular story that you find people you’re trying to reach living into, and maybe even a story that your parishioners are particularly drawn to?
Zeigler (19:01-20:11)
Watts (20:12-21:46): Yeah, and I think you just sort of went where my thoughts were as well. One of the things that seems so difficult for not just general purposes of ministry, but especially evangelism, is what people have incorporated into their—let’s say “worldview.” It seems like people have derived content from so many different stories or other narratives into their own narrative where it becomes difficult to talk about explicitly religious things. People would be quick to say that, “I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I believe you ought to go to church.” And yet those affirmations are sort of joined to these other affirmations about the good life and about what would really give a person hope: their children doing well or them doing well. It just seems hard for me to really get to the nub of a matter with people because there is so much explicitly religious language that has been incorporated into these other life-organizing stories. So help us figure this out a little more. I know you’ve gotten it all solved [laughs].
Zeigler (21:47-23:05)
Watts (23:06-24:00): I don’t want to get us too sidetracked here, but you know one of the things that is interesting about your book is that you discuss subjects that, when they are typically broached by other authors, they go in a different direction. So for example, on the problem of evil, it is very common for Christians to move immediately to some kind of free will defense. Or, when we’re talking about eschatology, it’s very common to focus on the historicity of certain biblical events. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but would you say that some of those moves in certain situations could be appropriate but that can’t be the primary means by which we embody the hope that is in Christ, or share that hope. Would you characterize it that way, or would you put that a little differently?
Zeigler (24:01-25:37)
Watts (25:38-26:08): Maybe a verse that captures that sentiment is 1 Peter 3:15. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” So there is that verbal communication and sharing that is appropriate for Christian witness. But that presupposes that people have seen that we do have hope in the first place.
Zeigler (26:09-26:46)
Watts (26:47-27:34): Well again, we’ve only scratched the surface, but I want to say again to our listeners that if you’re interested in eschatology, the problem of evil, or just generally in how to be equipped to think about Christian hope, I would commend unto you this book that Dr. Zeigler had written, Christian Hope Among Rivals, which was published by Pickwick in the latter part of last year. So again Michael, thank you so much for sharing these ideas from your book with us.
Zeigler (27:35-27:39)
February 28, 2018
Thank you, Jackson, for such a well crafted interview with Pastor Zeigler..life-organizing stories are something we definitely all have, but may not think about, but such a great idea to use in understanding how people structure their lives and help us to minister to each other. Using story and narrative to grasp Biblical or theological content is so helpful! Reminds me of CS Lewis..I will probably be getting this book!