Robert Picirilli on ‘Discipleship’: An Interview

Robert Picirilli (“RP”): Actually, the book isn’t about “discipleship” in one sense.  That is, it isn’t about how to be a disciple or how to disciple others.  Instead, it’s about the fact that one can’t be a Christian—can’t have saving faith—without being a disciple.  My reason for writing about this is the disappointing fact that so many people in our society (and even in our churches) claim to be Christians but live in such a way as to give the lie to that claim.  I fear that that they have been “brainwashed” into an “easy believism” that is not truly saving faith, and I think that we who preach and teach the church are partly responsible for their deception.

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JW: You note in the preface to Discipleship that “far too many members of our churches find it far too easy to live without clear evidence of their faith.” Which is a bigger problem—that this in some way reflects poor membership practices, or that our teaching on discipleship has been so deficient? Or is it both?

RP:  Certainly both are involved, but I think the primary problem is that we have not taught the meaning of genuine faith in Christ, that it is in essence a response to the call of Christ to be His disciple.  In our understandable effort to make sure we preach salvation by faith, rather than by works, we have stripped faith of its necessary expression in obedience to that call.  Then, secondarily, and growing out of that, we have allowed those whose lives do not evidence real faith to maintain membership in our churches and so have become complicit in their thinking that they are Christians—and in the world’s resulting uncertainty as to what a “Christian” is.

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JW: Based on my observations, much of the evangelical world tends to associate discipleship with short-term catechetical lessons or programs, mentoring, or another particular local church activity. What relationship, if any, do you believe these kinds of practices should have given the case you develop in your book?

RP:  I think that practices like these are important, but I think they need to follow, rather than replace, the even more basic and radical commitment to discipleship: that is, to renouncing all masters but Jesus and “taking up one’s cross” of death, and following Jesus in obedience.  This needs to be taught first, and then the person who commits to Christ needs to be guided in formal discipleship instruction.  Then, the basic demands of the covenantal relationship of a local church need to be enforced in loving discipline.

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JW: You address an error early on in the book that people commonly believe: that one can be a Christian without being a disciple. What forces do you think have contributed to this common misunderstanding? Surely it is more than an exegetical one.

RP:  I suspect that our fervor for “salvation by grace through faith, not of works” is at least partly responsible.  We are so concerned to defend this important emphasis that we fail to grapple with what is essential to the faith that saves.  Here’s where careful study of the New Testament is helpful.  Jesus, Paul, and James are, I believe, in full agreement on the teaching that faith expresses itself in works of obedience.

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JW: You mention that your proposal about discipleship will likely be compatible with Calvinist or Arminian theology, though in places there will be differences. Did you have any Calvinists read your manuscript, as you had the late Roger Nicole read Grace, Faith, and Free Will?

RP: I have not personally done so.  I think Randall House has offered the manuscript to a number of people for review, and no doubt some of them are Calvinists.  Alan P. Stanley, for example—although I am not sure where he fits in the Calvinist-Arminian continuum—has given a positive statement about the book.

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JW: At the heart of your argument is the contention that there are two models of salvation: the transaction model and the discipleship model. Does your study of Scripture allow for any other models that don’t neatly fit into either of these categories? Or do you think these capture all the Scriptural data? To clarify, I wondered when reading what contribution some Old Testament exegesis might add to your argument.

RP: I have an idea that the Scriptures use many “models” in expressing the experience of salvation, but I have not attempted to develop any others.  The transaction model probably dominates evangelical theology. I thought the discipleship model needed further development.  John MacArthur and Alan P. Stanley have given it some attention (without calling it that), limited to the Synoptic Gospels.  I felt that the entire New Testament needed to be examined in that light.  I have not given any thought to what contributions the Old Testament might make to this except for the general observation that there the righteous and the wicked are identified by how they live or do not live in accord with “the fear of God.”  Living in the fear of God is the expression of saving faith.

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JW: For readers who have benefited greatly from your work, can you share any information about ongoing or potential future projects?

RP: I’ve also written a lengthy article about Providence, a subject that no one among us has dealt with.  In addition, I’m working on some segments of Free Will Baptist history that few are aware of.

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JW: Thank you very much for taking the time to answer these questions. We hope Discipleship: The Expression of Saving Faith receives a wide hearing.